Register | Login | Contact | Home
A Conversation : Fifth Response - Mr. Walker - Part Two
This Continues "Fifth Response - Mr. Walker."

Augustine said: “It is therefore an observed and settled fact, that no man born of a man and a woman, that is, by means of their bodily union, is seen to be free from sin. Whosoever, indeed, is free from sin, is free also from a conception and birth of this kind. Moreover, when expounding the Gospel according to Luke, he says: It was no cohabitation with a husband which opened the secrets of the Virgin’s womb; rather was it the Holy Ghost which infused immaculate seed into her unviolated womb. For the Lord Jesus alone of those who are born of woman is holy, inasmuch as He experienced not the contact of earthly corruption, by reason of the novelty of His immaculate birth; nay, He repelled it by His heavenly majesty” Augustine, A Treatise on the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin (emphasis added)

I don’t have the time to find any more quotes, but many early church leaders and other Popes did not teach this dogma. This was a doctrine that evolved over time and had to be clarified and made dogma to help hold other doctrine together.

Even Aquinas, who believed Mary to have been without sin in her life, acknowledges that she would have been born with original sin. Do you require any further evidence?

But again I don’t give a hoot about these beliefs, as I know just like myself they are fallible. Does scripture teach that Mary was born without sin? No it does not. But instead it teaches that all sin came to all men and death to all men at Adam.

Romans 5:12-14

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

Sin came at Adam as did death. And Death reigned over everyone, even if they did not break a command and they ALL died. So if Mary herself recognizes she needs a savior and the whole of scripture teaches that everyone is a sinner and that all died at Adam. Then why should we even believe that Mary was born without sin. Because she must be without sin to produce Jesus without sin. But then obviously her parents must have been without sin, and their parents, and so on and so on. Or perhaps God divinely intervened in between Mary’s parents as to not impart sin unto Mary. But wait a minute, why would he have to do that with Mary, the product of a natural sexual relationship, but not have done this in the conception of Jesus already done by divine method? The logic used here is not based on scripture. Scripture gives us no hint to Mary being without sin and many statements regarding her being a sinner. This is where we can see the problem with starting with a concept and searching to find proof, or at least nothing that says it couldn’t happen. Instead if we found out who Mary is straight from scripture, you get a beautiful picture of a humble woman who submitted her life to God and was counted as blessed. We see an awesome relationship between her and Jesus, but one that we can each take part of. And most of all we see a Jesus who is Lord of All, yet uses us sinners to bring glory to him.

As for the Inquisition, we could study that after we study the Bible together. I don’t know too much on the subject, but would love to study it more. I did not offer it up as means of accusation against the Roman Catholic Church, but again it was simply to show that, in fact teaching has changed throughout the years. There was a time when people were killed by the Roman Catholic Church and the Popes for not following them. It was an official stance of the church as the Popes devised it and carried it out. This is no longer the case, so we can see a different teaching on how to handle “heretics”.

Peter De Rosa, a Roman Catholic historian, wrote a book called the Vicars of Christ, the dark side of the Papacy. He states “Today [The Roman Catholic Church] it prides itself and with much justification on being the defender of natural law and the rights of man. The Papacy in particular likes to see itself as the champion of morality. What history shows is that for more than six centuries without a break, the papacy was the sworn enemy of elementary justice. Of eighty popes in a line from the 13th century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine.” (emphasis added)

So after we study the Bible together, I would be all for a history lesson on the inquisition.
Regarding praying to the saints, there is nothing against this practice in the Bible. We are not “consulting” soothsayers and necromancers and mediums and wizards which the Bible does indeed proscribe. We are speaking to the living members of the Body of Christ. Tell me please, where does the Bible say, “Thou art not to ask for intercessory prayers from the members of Christ’s Body who live in Heaven?” You say that asking the saints in Heaven for prayer is the same as speaking to the dead. Yet, Jesus says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are living. So, when I claim that Catholics are not talking to the dead when we ask the saints in Heaven to intercede for us, do you deny Jesus by saying that they are indeed dead rather than alive?
You talked about Abraham and the fact that his circumcision did not save him. My question for you is, could he have been saved if he had refused to be circumcised?
Yes, but my question for you is could he really have faith and then refuse circumcision? Can you say you have faith and then not trust the very thing you say you are trusting in?? Moses was saved, but failed to keep circumcision for his sons, God almost took him out for it, but Moses was still saved.
Regarding Mary. You stated: “Mary was a sinner who needed a savior. She says it and the whole of scripture affirms that all have sinned. Please tell me where Mary says she was a sinner? She says she needed a savior, but she did not say she had sinned. Again, you add words to Scripture to get it to fit your preconceived notions. I have never been an alcoholic or a drug addict. May I rightly claim that Jesus saved me from being an alcoholic or a drug addict? Just so, could God have saved Mary before she was ever stained with sin? Yes or no? And, if He had saved Mary from sin, before she was tainted with sin, could she not rightly claim that God was her savior?
Why do you need a savior if you don’t need to be saved?

Mary says: “ My soul glorifies the Lord 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed”

Mary clearly recognizes her humble state, and her need for a savior. Furthermore she adds that she is rejoicing in this and from now (the present time in which she is singing) on all generations will call her blessed.

And when we examine her song with the rest of scripture, we know that all have sinned, that sin entered the world at Adam, and death came to everyone, then her words are completely clear. There is no Biblical inference any where that Mary was born without sin nor that she lived a perfect life, or was ever ascended. It is only when you work backwards that this these theories work.
What, in the Kingdom of David , was the mother of the king called? Was she called a queen?
Is Mary Jesus’ mother or the mother or his human body. Was David the father of the Messiah? Why would David call his son Lord? Is David the King of Heaven?
You state that by believing Mary was assumed into Heaven, we are giving glory and worship to Mary that is rightfully given to God alone. Please specifically state how this is so? Are you not aware that we believe Mary was assumed into Heaven by God’s power and not her own? How does believing she was assumed into Heaven translate into giving her worship? We believe Elijah and Enoch were assumed into Heaven, does that mean we are worshipping them as well?
Because the teaching of Mary’s assumption is based solely on the notion that she was sinless and that her body could not see decay. However this is spoken of only for Christ, the Holy One in Psalm 16 and Acts 2. Unless Mary is the Holy One.
Again, there is much I’m not responding to – at this point in time – but would love to get back to in the future. One last thing I would like to say, however, which goes completely against the assumptions you are making about me, is this: I was out of the Church for many years. When I came back into the Church I was what we call a cafeteria Catholic. In other words, I didn’t buy into all of what the Church taught. I believed what I wanted to believe and rejected what I didn’t want to believe. It was reading the Bible, however, that brought me to believe all of what the Church teaches. So, I did not approach the Bible believing what the Church teaches and looking for a verse here or there to backup what the Church teaches. Far from it. I approached the Bible not believing much of what the Church taught. It was the Bible that made a believer out of me. I did not come to the Bible from the Catholic Church, I came to the Catholic Church from the Bible.
I apologize if I assumed what you believe. I tried to make a point of stating that I was dealing with the Roman Catholic Church and not you personally. I did not know how you came to follow them. My accusations of building theology backwards was to the Roman Catholic Church which in seeking to defend a position or to justify a practice will search scripture to find something that might support it or at least not abolish it.

I am glad that you have read the Bible, how it leads you to the Roman Catholic church, I don’t know. But perhaps if we studied it together you could show me. But I encourage you to stay with the scripture and continue to seek the truth. I will continue to pray for you and Mr. Martinez and anyone else who may read my emails. His sheep will recognize his voice.

You know if you don’t wish to just study the Bible front to back with me. I would be interested if you would like to study a few books together. I would like to study Romans and Galatians and would be very interested in studying James with you as well.

It doesn’t bother me that you don’t respond to all my points as I am not trying to win a discussion with you. I only hope that through God’s word that He may open your eyes or anyone else’s to the truth of his word.

Eddie Walker
God bless!

John Martignoni

Posted on Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:18 am by accesservant

"Fifth Response - Mr. Walker - Part Two" | Login/Create an Account | 3 comments | Search Discussion
The comments are owned by the poster. We aren't responsible for their content.

No Comments Allowed for Anonymous, please register

Preserve Power With Photo voltaic Panels (Score: 1)
by miin on Fri May 27, 2011 7:50 am
(User Info | Send a Message)
e analysis.You'll be able to put on a sweatshirt. Exactly where you are able to gucci purse demonstrate your "chicness" and model, is with your gucci purse. 1969 was a massive yr for Breiting enjoy producing and for aviation. It absolutely was 169 when Breitling launched the first selfwinding chronograph movement which gave birth to and led to the advancement from the famous and wellreceived the ChronoMatic chronographs. It was also 1969 that witnessed the first flight of the Boeing 747 Jumbo Jet and that with the supersonic Concorde. In celebration with the 40th of the legendary movement, Breiting has launched two exceptionl ChronoMatic limited editions, the ChronoMatic QP plus the ChronoMatic 1461 determined by the 1969 original model. The two limited editions come with sharp searching and substantial dim

Jordan (Score: 1)
by miin on Tue May 31, 2011 11:09 am
(User Info | Send a Message)
You have very interesting blog,just keep up

rose (Score: 1)
by miin on Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:43 pm
(User Info | Send a Message)
I don't completely agree, but the principle is right, and you're heart is in the right place.

Article's Poll
What is Your Religion?

Roman Catholic

[ Results | Polls ]

Votes: 0
Comments: 0

Related Links
· More about A Conversation
· News by accesservant

Most read story about A Conversation:
The Third Response - Mr. Walker - Part Two

Article Rating
Average Score: 1
Votes: 1

Please take a second and vote for this article:

Very Good


 Printer Friendly Printer Friendly

 Send to a Friend Send to a Friend

News ©
Access Christian all rights reserved. 1999 - 2008

QUICK LINKS: Bible | Roommates | Singles | Forums | Prayer | Theword | Devotionals | Discussions | Home
CLICK HERE >>> - Christian Singles <<< CLICK HERE